Agnostics, do you search for proof?
Question by anarresti: Agnostics, do you search for proof?
I must confess that I have a prejudice regarding agnostics. It’s based on the agnostics I’ve met, but I know it is a stupid stereotype. I tend to see agnostics as people with little curiosity for the transcendent, or at least people that don’t care, are not interested in things that do not fit the ordinary, or the factual.
“Agnosticism (Greek: ?- a-, without + ?????? gn?sis, knowledge; after Gnosticism) is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, ghosts, or even ultimate reality — is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove. It is often put forth as a middle ground between theism and atheism[1].”
I get it.
But, other than the existence of deities, there are a lot of fundamental, extremely important questions.
– Is love possible?. If so, should we try to love our enemies?
– And karma, does its cause and effect explanation help you with your daily decisions and to relate to the bad things that happen to you?
– Are religious people naive? Are atheists pessimistic?
– Do you pray? Is praying pointless? Is it a mental thing, that can help you became focused and motivated?
The agnostics I met were people lacking curiosity. But I do realize that every person is different. And probably every agnostic relates to the world in a specific personal way.
Does “not being able to know” makes you not interested, or is it the contrary?
The Mind & Life Institute promotes scientific discussion. And it’s an Institute founded by Tibetan Buddhism.
http://www.mindandlife.org/history.html
In 2009 there will be the Mind and Life XVIII, with the motto: Attention, Memory and the Mind:
A Synergy of Psychological, Neuroscientific, and Contemplative Perspectives.
http://www.mindandlife.org/conf09.dharamsala.html
Buddhist Monks let themselves, for some years now, be studied in laboratory, while doing meditation. They are very interested in Science.
Are you curious about this? Do you believe that Science and Religion can work together, with the purpose of knowing more about reality and the material world and making human life better? Or are religions hopeless, because they have a bias perspective?
Ok, you might say, every agnostic has his own opinion about it. That’s fine, let me hear your personal views, your own opinions.
“Religion has no grounding in anything that can be scientifically verifiable”.
😀
starskream, look into the The Mind & Life Institute. I’ve met a few Buddhist Monks. And they really are science-driven, very sharp. And, and the Dalai Lama refered, the last time in Portugal, “some say that Buddhism is a science of the mind”, when asked if Buddhism was a religion. They do not transform traditional knowledge (meditation, medicine, yoga, Lu jong) into dogmas. On the Contrary, they submit to the scrutiny of science. Most conferences start with (after the greetings, and the thanks for the day) the Monk saying “do not unplugg your reason, use your reasoning judging what I will say, figth it, analyse it, be critical”. And the Mind And Life conferecnces (more the 15 editions so far) have received some of the best scientist in areas related to the mind, like psychiatrist, neurologists, psychologists, etc.
— just a detail, when I said “Most conferences start with…”, I was refering to Buddhist retreats and conferences I went to (not the Mind & Life meetings).
Best answer:
Answer by Mystine G
I am curious about everything and I am always seeking answers. That is why I am agnostic. I find atheists and theists annoying because many of them think they have the answers, and therefore give up thinking and curiosity.
However, the answers must always be factual, or they are meaningless. The problem is, humans have very few of the real answers to the big questions. Our science is very primitive, very imperfect because it is being explored by imperfect, primitive brains.
What do you think? Answer below!
7 Responses to Agnostics, do you search for proof?
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agnostics accept that we can’t know everything and instead of attributing the unknown to a certain deity, they believe it wiser to admit they do not know
some agnostics probably do look into religion in detail, but some just aren’t interested in it at all and believe it futile to search
they won’t rule out the possibility, only the notion that a select few people have access to such higher knowledge regarding God
We all are human. We each can decide to follow one religion or another, or to not follow any religion.
Some might say they are agnostics because they have decided to not contemplate any form of spirituality. Many because they believe we cannot truly know the truth of it.
But those two aren’t true for all agnostics.
Spirituality is one thing. Some religion has grown apart from spirituality. It’s ironic that some of the responsibility for that has to be laid at the feet of the proselytizing religions. And it’s ironic that they are themselves responsible for some of those who they believe are without hope as they define it.
Their form of religion is one main reason why some claim to be agnostic.
I shy away from religion. But that doesn’t mean I don’t have a spiritual approach to my life.
Each of us should be respected by all, whatever our lifestyle or beliefs. There’s no limit provided that there’s no harm.
All the same, I have the right to prick windbags and make fun of the pompous, the prejudiced, the deliberately dumb, and the opinionated bigots that there are about the place.
Yeah, I like to think of myself as being curious. From an Agnostic Atheist’s point of view let me answer your questions.
But, other than the existence of deities, there are a lot of fundamental, extremely important questions.
1. Is love possible?. If so, should we try to love our enemies?
-Yeah of course love is possible, its the result of various chemicals being released into and subsequently stimulating the brain, as studies have shown numerous times.
2.Karma, does it affect my decision process?
– You answered this one yourself, this would fall under the metaphysical category.
3. Religious people naive?
– Sometimes, yeah.
Atheists pessimistic?
– No, they are just realistic
4.
– Yes, prayer is pointless, studies have actually shown this, look it up if you are interested. Meditation is another story, studies have actually shown meditation to have beneficial effects on the cognitive thought process, in addition to reducing stress levels which in turn helps the immune system.
To answer your subsequent questions, yes religion is pointless and no science and religion can’t be reconciled.
Religion has no grounding in anything that can be scientifically verifiable, usually it requires something called faith. Science uses a little something called evidence, faith and evidence are almost polar opposites. Religion can not help further knowledge about “reality” as it is based in superstition and surreality.
And as far as pointless… I wouldn’t stop there, organized religion is detrimental to the lives of people. Just look at history. I.E. the crusades, Northern Ireland, American colonialism and subsequent destruction of native Americans, 9/11 and 7/11, the recent attacks in mumbai, the war in Iraq, etc.
This is a short answer to your questions and thoughts.
Science is a study of relative aspects of physical truth. What science called mind is infact a brain. Scienctific evidence are based on physical senses.
Buddhism is a practice in search of mind.
Buddhist evidence is based on the sixth sense.
Once we find the mind, we can make it powerful enough to experiecne nivarna.
i am highly curious about everything you mentioned…obviously we wouldn’t bother coming on here if we weren’t interested in religion, right?
it’s my belief that i can’t possibly fit the majesty of the world and universe inside my human mind…and i wouldn’t want to! where’s the wonder and magic of that?!
i hope that any kind of god worth his salt would blow my mind completely if ever revealed to me…it’s my opinion that those who have decided they can understand the vastness of god, if there is one, have fooled themselves fully and have an inflated idea of who they are and where they fit into the world…and it seems pretty obvious to me that by declaring so positively to know all the inner workings of the world, *they* are the ones who have stopped “looking”.
thanks for the interesting question! ;>
The very definition of agnosticism is that it is not possible to know. Margaret Atwood, a self-described doctrinaire agnostic, has said that she believes there are some things we cannot possibly know.
That doesn’t mean we don’t seek knowledge. But isn’t it better to admit you aren’t sure than to insist on something–and be totally wrong? Maybe there’s something out there, but I’m not sure, and I don’t think I’ll ever know.
Yes, I believe in karma to some extent.
I don’t know if I would call religious people naive, but I would encourage them to explore why they believe as they do. I know it’s not easy to make a radical departure from what you have been programmed to do all your life. And I’m not sure I’d call atheists pessimistic.
I don’t pray, but I do meditate, usually while I’m trying to get to sleep. On the rare occasion I go to synagogue (special family events), it’s the ritual, not the prayers, that have meaning.
I suppose I’m less agnostic than I am Secular Humanist, meaning I believe that human salvation is entirely dependent on our showing kindness to each other and to the world. But people understand the meaning of agnostic better.
So much to address here. Would you ask the simple questions? 🙂
But since you gave me time, intentionally or not, I’m going to answer afterall.
I guess some part of this would depend on your idea of curious and what you believe we should perhaps be curious about. Even by answering this I feel like I’m painting myself into an “agnostic” corner and limiting myself somehow that way. Do you think we should be curious within or out of the context of mono-theistic Mid-Eastern religions, seeking our answers there somehow?
I do believe I’m one of the most curious people I know. In fact, am I agnostic because of my curiosity or am I curious because I’m agnostic?
That I don’t pursue all answers in religion (especially organized) is a function of being agnostic perhaps. Though I suppose it could be rejection… I do seek answers but perhaps not religious ones, except as to how religion formed culture and history and how we think, all of which makes me more agnostic.
I think, in my case, “not knowing” is a way of finding acceptance and not letting it bother me especially in that I don’t believe in the dogma of religion which (hopefully not to offend anyone), I see as modern day mythology not unlike the Greek and Roman Gods and Stories. I also think that a lot of the ideas around religions came from those who had schizophrenia and other conditions we didn’t understand and consider outside the norm (not that it makes it wrong).
So yeah, I have this other theory about the Chinese who have a rich culture including many spirits and Gods among them being the Kitchen God, Door Spirits and of course lots of angry ghosts who can’t follow a crooked line (why paths in Chinese gardens are jagged). Years (and I mean decades and centuries ago) there was little to keep children in the house and from wandering away in the middle of the night to be eaten, or fall in wells, or snatched, etc., but ghost stories were a way to get them to stay in of their own accord. As with all things mythological the stories took on a life of their own going with children into adulthood. Is it any more mundane because I’ve given it a pedestrian explanation? I don’t think so. It feels all the more interesting to me.
There’s so much more to know as well such as, how were the pyramids built, what’s at the bottoms of the deep ocean, is there life on other planets…? I think in many ways religion is limiting to seeking of that knowledge. Remember (well, not literally) when people were punished for saying the Earth orbited the Sun? It’s easy to dismiss when it can just be attributed to “God’s Way” and forgotten. So in that way I guess I answered how I believe about the niavety of many religious people. I guess I see religion as a way to not bother as well but also to write off caring about things (perhaps the environment, or animals) especially those who believe in the rapture.
What do I believe in? I believe in faith. I think if someone has faith then a lot is possible and can even be miraculous. It’s a placebo effect in a way but no less remarkable for it because it does produce results.
This weekend the news was how happiness spreads, that how cheerful the neighbor is has an effect on how happy you will be. That’s a fascinating scientific observation of something that makes a lot of sense yet is still spiritual.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1864519,00.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/health/05happy-web.html?em=&pagewanted=all
Which leads to the idioms:
“Misery loves company” but “laugh and the world laughs with you.”
Having faith allows someone to let things go which otherwise would stress them out and cause negative effects.
To directly answer some of your questions:
I do believe in love and in fact I think it’s a great driver, motivator. It’s multifaceted though composed of acceptance, friendship, good will, generosity, support, trust, and a bit more. That’s a deep subject all in itself.
http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/13-4.htm (descriptive not definitive)
Love however is hard to market… so ironically gets discounted a lot.
Definitely karma, because I need to believe in it whether it exists or not, but also because I’ve seen it happen around me both immediate and long-term. It does help me to see what I could have done to bring on my own misfortunes and to change those, which leads me to peace and my own acceptance; all of which it turns out is more important than those I dislike getting served their own karma. So, being able to love thy enemy is also a self-acceptance thing (wishing them well though is a new concept to me but intriguing).
Are atheists pessimistic? Hmmm… I don’t know if I’ve ever given this any thought. I can see that some people might become atheists because of pessimistic outlooks but it would almost seem to me the most negative need religion more. One has to be rather secure to suspend belief. One thing I feel positive about is they aren’t knocking on my door at inconvenient times to convince me nothing is going to happen.
Praying… Yes, I do. I don’t think it’s quite the same but it is I guess; in a way that another language is a way to communicate as well as think (language and how it shapes us — even regarding religion — being another thing I’m deeply curious about). I do think it’s mental and can help focus and motivation in the same way meditation does and if only for that it’s not pointless… but it’s just possible that it *is* being heard as well somehow and, consequently addressed (here comes karma again…) and “no” is also an answer.
Another thing I believe in is perception. All people, including religious, have different ones and those perceptions *are* their realities. It’s what would make someone who considers him or herself curious seem not to be by someone else.
Maybe the incurious people you know who happen to be agnostic just are that way naturally (personalities are something else I wonder constantly about, with awe) and would be if religious as well. Maybe you should get to know other agnostics such as myself who you could enrich with your own experiences as well.
^_~