Question by spiral (fractal 4 a few more days): is it totally beyond the realm of the possible?
that we could, one day, look at spirituality, at the impulse to believe, in a way which transcends race, religious affiliation and any other factors which currently impede the progress of our dialogue? i ask this because i believe there is in our metaphysical aspirations, our religious tendencies, our shared quest for meaning and understanding, a core of truth and shared experience that are applicable across the board. the enquiry is global and cuts across all boundaries and when knowledge is shared and collaboration takes place, the results can be wonderful.
i suspect many of you will consider me hopelessly naive in even bothering to ask such a question but i guess i am interested in exploring also, what you would consider the ‘insurmountable’ obstacles to such an approach. thanks.
frizby: i am simply asking whether we might, one day, get along by investigating or pursuing religion and our search for meaning a little more like we handle searching for answers in mathematics… can we bring down the dividing barriers – or, are those barriers a manifestation of deep-seated traits which are nearly impossible to remove. is that clearer, or just as muddled as my previous?
missdementia: you make me feel there is reason to hope 🙂
davey: you make me wonder whether you and me should start a club 🙂 and, thank you.
muchkin: you make me understand the christian perspective a little better 🙂 thank you.
brkshandilya: thank you kindly for your reply. i am buoyed by what you say, especially the bit about no one being able to stop an idea when its time has come. if i have asked this question, it is partly due to the fact that the seeds are already floating out there. like you, i’m sure it’s not going to be an overnight affair but i think the current scenario (much like the way we treat our beautiful planet) is not indefinitely sustainable. something’s gotta give, somewhere.
meowbz: fab! i appreciate the interesting links which i shall be exploring. thank you for taking the time, it is much appreciated.
mr spencer: thank you also for your reply. i have come across references to the stanford prison experiment a few times, and am vaguely familiar with it, so, i’m sure it won’t do me any harm to revisit in light of what i am currently thinking about.
also, i didn’t know about ‘the lucifer effect’ but will make an effort to check it out of the library soon (for some strange reason, since i’ve been on yahoo, my reading list has taken some interesting and unusual twists. i used to primarily read fiction and now i seem to have no time other than for non-fiction!). it’s all good 🙂
you’ve all given me plenty to think about.
mr spencer: thank you also for your reply. i have come across references to the stanford prison experiment a few times, and am vaguely familiar with it, so, i’m sure it won’t do me any harm to revisit in light of what i am currently thinking about.
also, i didn’t know about ‘the lucifer effect’ but will make an effort to check it out of the library soon (for some strange reason, since i’ve been on yahoo, my reading list has taken some interesting and unusual twists. i used to primarily read fiction and now i seem to have no time other than for non-fiction!). it’s all good 🙂
you’ve all given me plenty to think about.
yahoo is playing tricks on me today! it’s posted my last replies twice – sorry folks – it’s already cumbersome enough as it is – my wall of writing. still… better twice than not at all 🙂
my pleasure mr spencer (this from a big fan of jibber jabber, especially when it can be cordial and civilised, and, if cannot be those things, then wit and humour will suffice).
Best answer:
Answer by Frizby
What?, say that again in layman’s terms..
Edit:
Thanx for adding, I’m with you, I truly believe we are but only if those who are’nt biased can truly have an unbiased say regardless of its origins..
Know better? Leave your own answer in the comments!
everything is possimpible. where the possible meets the impossible
Christian here….just hang on a while longer, and I believe you will actually see a world wide church which all practice the same basic components, and will all love…love…..love each other. The only obstacle preventing it from getting started is the rapture of the church, which most christians believe is imminent! Hallelujah!
I hope so. You already see this in the heathen and pagan communities. While we all walk very different paths and have different cultural backgrounds, we frequently gather together and exchange information and ideas and just enjoy one another’s company. This happens on a large scale every year over President’s Day weekend in San Jose at Panthea Con as well as the normal day-to-day interactions many of us have with one another. You are correct – the results can be wonderful. My Kindred is made up of many different types of Nordic Heathen yet we manage to work together quite well and are very active in our community doing primarily work with the very poor and the homeless. (Beggars and Wanderers – representative of Alfar – Oðin – in one of his aspects) We’re like a non-denominational church, but for Germanic/Nordic Heathens.
I think the most insurmountable obstacle to this becoming the norm among all faiths and people is simply the propensity for some to claim theirs is the ONLY correct point of view, faith or interpretation of everything, everywhere, forever. Not only do they block the free flow of information and ideas between others if they can, they are downright dangerous in a lot of ways. Some people deny others’ basic faiths are valid, deny their feelings are valid and vilify those that aren’t just like them. Unfortunately, these same people reproduce at a frighteningly high rate and tend to pass these bigoted tendencies on to their children. I’m surprised theocratic governments aren’t more common because of this kind of person, in all honesty.
While part of human nature is the desire to learn and explore, xenophobia is also a part of human nature. If you think about it, some degree of xenophobia is hardwired into each of us. It was a survival strategy that dates back to the caveman days. When people can overcome that more effectively we’ll have a shot at it. For some groups, we have overcome that to a limited degree. Others I despair of ever being able to open their eyes and look at their fellow humans as just that – humans first and worthy of respect. How many times have we heard on this very board that someone “has to earn my respect”? When we get rid of that nasty little attitude and foster an environment where all points of view are considered valid even if you disagree we’ll have truly become civilized IMO. Right now we’re just a tiny step up from our cave-dwelling ancestors.
We, as in me and you, can look at it that way. But we, as in all people within all beliefs systems, wont be able to.
Belief systems like Christianity and Islam just don’t accept other perspectives. Anyone who’s not with them is by definition against them. They don’t understand the saying ‘live and let live’.
We’re going to need to either get rid of these belief systems, or alter them so they fit into a multicultural, multiracial, and multi-religious society. I don’t think they do at the moment.
I like the new avatar, Fractal 🙂
Prince Charles is a keen exponent of inter-faith, and while dialogue is always wonderful, those who seek it often want to see the lines blurred to the point where the different faiths become amorphous. As a Christian I believe God is God, and anything else is merely a man-made god… and, while I know many will believe it’s a closed-minded belief, am not willing to compromise Him in any way.
The problem, though, isn’t our differences – it’s now we respond to them. I agree with you that we all have those aspirations and tendencies (our factory setting, I suppose), but collaboraton often means eschewing your comfort in saying you believe your God is the only Truth. Not because collaboration is impossible, but because we’ve all become so polarised, moderation is terribly rare. It’s become very “if you’re not with us you’re against us… no wiggle room”, and I know that while Christianity is all about inclusion and loving others and serving others, compromising Him (and His being the one and only God) isn’t a possibility. To others, that will always seem arrogant or single-minded. Objectively speaking, the belief that He is God and is the only God *is* an obstacle, and most faiths believe that of whomever or whatever they worship.
But I maintain that while we turn our differences into something violent and hateful, the differences in and of themselves aren’t the problem.
Every sensible person would agree with up to some extent and may be willing to go an extra mile to try it further but I think and have strong reasons to believe that organized religions wouldn’t let even the process begin,as it would cut them all at their very roots.Another route for the process which has some what more chances to succeed is via globalization and more and more people opting for international main stream life styles and value-systems,where personal religious beliefs get relegated to back ground and finally,redundancy. It would be a long drawn affair and may cover some generations to show results.Here,organized religions shall be pushed aside by the followers and shall find themselves to be quite helpless.The concept is right now,beyond the realm of the possible but nor for ever.History is replete with examples where people like you were able to sow seeds of the ideas which took their own time to sprout and grow We also know from history that NOBODY OR NOTHING CAN STOP AN IDEA WHOSE TIME HAS COME.Thanks.
there are no insurmountable obstacles and the work you describe is being undertaken as we speak by many people. it’s just that this is the avant-garde which is only of interest to, and is only grasped by, a minority.
ken wilber and work being done in and around integral theory is of particular interest in this regard, as is the modern western magickal tradition, with it’s various offshoots and rebel branches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8-Circuit_Model_of_Consciousness
interestingly bill clinton has mentioned interest in ken wilber, so it is hopeful to consider that such ideas are reaching in to ‘high places’:
http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/show/543
i think it’s possible wilber’s work may be exactly what you are looking for.
i highly recommend integral spirituality as an intro:
http://www.amazon.com/Integral-Spirituality-Startling-Religion-Postmodern/dp/1590305272/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253217052&sr=8-1
Yes and no.
This ‘core truth’ is the desire to better the world around us. Whether motivated by self-interest or the advancement of a society, all of our actions parallel this essential need to stabilize our chaotic existence. There are few, if any, benefits in the pursuit of complete annihilation of existence. “Doctor Evils” of the world simply do not exist. Even some of the most grotesque acts against humanity were done in an effort to eradicate a perceived problem.
For example, the extermination of 6 million Jews was perceived by Hitler and the Nazi party as an attempt to ‘cleanse’ Germany. While I do not condone his actions, I can develop an understanding for his motives. To vilify him is to place myself above such acts of cruelty. I present to you the Stanford Prison Experiment in effort to prove otherwise. Vilifying him is the first step to building these walls you seek to take down.
The problem seems to be the infinite interpretations of how to go about achieving this goal. Yet, these interpretations are pivotal to spirituality because spirituality is a personal relationship with life. It reinforces the development of the individual and the steps of progress originate in the individual, not the society. Therefore, any universally accepted spiritual truth would inevitably become uneventful and uninspiring. If everyone agrees that A + B = C, then what is left to discuss? I fear that existence more so than the one I live today.
In my opinion, your dream is a beautiful and peaceful one. But peace and unity cannot be acquired with the pursuit of common ground. It can only be achieved by searching within. Once we are at peace with ourselves, only then can we be at peace with the rest of the world.