Question by Violet: Pagans mocking Christians?
When I first heard the song ‘Zombies for Jesus’ around a bon-fire at a Wiccan festival, I thought it was hilarious, especially when several people got up and did the ‘Zombie walk’ with blank stares on their faces.
The more time I spent with Wiccan and pagan groups, the more of a rampant disdain and mockery of Christianity I noticed.
Sometimes, however, I felt this went too far. There was one mock public ritual in particular at a festival that was set up as a pagan version of the 10 commandments that truly disgusted me. The girlfriend of one of the Bards was Catholic, and she walked away in tears. She had been hesitant about attending the festival, but was assured that people of all faiths were welcome, and would be treated with respect, and viewed as equals. Most people saw nothing wrong with the parody.
So my question to Wiccans and pagans…where do you draw the line at poking fun at Christians? Under what circumstances do you feel justified and why?
Funny you should say that Brooke…that particular ritual was organized by the coven of the President of the Pagan Federation of Canada, and was held on her property. She loved it.
Oh dear, there are so many awesome posts here! I really hate having to let this go to vote, but I cannot possibly choose just 1 of you.
Let’s just hope that the ‘right’ people vote in adequate numbers for one of my favourites to be chosen. oops, did I say that? *poke* heheh
Wonderful answers guys. Thank you!
Best answer:
Answer by ????su?s Consiglieri
Sometimes years of physical and mental persicution takes time to forgive.
Give your answer to this question below!
Jesus asked that we love our neighbors.
Christians are our neighbors too.
Love and blessings Don
I’ve never heard the song “Zombies for Jesus” and I’ve never been to a pagan festival where non-pagan people were mocked. Maybe I choose more tolerant groups than those you’re speaking about but I’d be very upset and would complain to the festival organizers if I were to attend a festival such as the one you’ve described.
EDIT: Ugh… I guess that suggestion wouldn’t work if the organizer is actually supporting the mocking but at least she would know that there are people who were unhappy and uncomfortable… if enough people complain it may not happen again the following year. The only other thing I would do is be sure to never spend another dime at that festival again and to spread the word about their bigotry.
Also… I know and understand that many pagans feel persecuted by Christians… however, I’ve never felt that personally and unless I do, I won’t mock another’s faith… it’s just not what I believe.
“”GOD is Not Mocked ; for Whatsoever a man soweth , that shall he also reap ; if he soweth to the flesh then of the flesh he shall reap corruption, but if he sows to the spirit , then of the spirit he shall reap life everlasting “”
There is a Harvest day
what was YOUR HARVEST sowed with ?
and to whom ?
God is not mocked !!!!!!!!
Pagans are often just as intolerant and bigoted as they claim Christians to be. Pretty ironic too, since Christian traditions play a big role in modern-day Gardnerian Wicca. It’s sad that their faith has nothing more to offer than to mock and ridicule the faith of someone else.
I don’t generally have a problem with Christians. If they can leave me alone, then I tend to leave them alone. When they decide that I am not worthy of respect or compassion because of what I believe, then I get irate. I don’t hide it; if someone asks me what I think of Christianity as a Pagan, I say exactly what I think of it. It doesn’t do me or anyone else any good if I profess love with my words and still have ire in my heart. Even before becoming Pagan I had some very awful things happen that came from people who were “doing God’s will” or “following God’s commands.” So I know that my prejudice does not stem solely from being Pagan.
I believe in “live and let live” but it is hard to do when another isn’t willing to extend to you the same courtesy.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that the situations were in poor taste. Though I must confess that I have my own biases against Christianity. It might be that many Pagans are venting frustrations that come as the result of having been mocked by Christians. I can tell you some of my own negative experiences with Christians making my life miserable, and I keep a low profile. Voices must be raised though to point out how it’s wrong to mock others even if you hold a grudge against the people you mock. But never forget, Pagans who mock Christians do so because they do hold a grudge that could be justified.
I am a Christian and it is my experience with pagans and wiccans that they do not wish to serve God. They may acknowledge God, but they serve another. It is not of God that this sort of action comes. Steer yourself clear of these religions unless you get caught up in them and cease to believe yourself. They will forever be poking fun at the Christian faith. It is not God that they wish to honor.
I do not believe that doing things like that is in our best interest. I’ve not seen anything like what you described at any festivals I have been to, and I hope that I never shall. Making fun of another religion only makes us look bad in the eyes of all. Also my Fiance is Catholic, I have no problem with people of other faiths. I believe everyone has their own path to follow. Making fun of someone for their path, to me, is like making fun of someone for their hair, eye or skin color. After all it is as much a part of someone as those other traits.
Now if someone is hurting me or the ones I love then I retaliate in kind. This usually ends up with them bleeding on the ground. I do not put up with that bullshit.
I draw the line at “poking fun”…discussing differences in belief, and pointing out on what and why we disagree is one thing, mocking others in a hurtful way is another.
I think it is especially poor taste at a public event. Just like a joke between friends is one thing, but insulting someone to their face is another.
I haven’t experienced this at a public pagan event, but I’ve seen some ugly stuff online and I move on quickly.
I left the Unitarian Universalist church over this kind of thing. It was “cool” to discuss beliefs…but to actually hold and live a religion was laughable and mocked…especially if said faith was Christianity. And while I am not a Christian, that doesn’t mean I don’t believe in the golden rule, or in respecting people’s right to faith without harrasment.
I am a Wiccan and I never mock any religious belief. I have been invited to Coven meetings in many parts of the world, and in none of those meetings was ever mocked any religion.
Just because we don’t agree with a particular religious belief, doesn’t give us the right to make fun of that religion.
I would only consider a play acceptable. One in which people is reminded of how our pagan ancesters suffered on the hands of the early Roman Church. But even that, must be done with respect.
I don’t like to mock Christianity in general. I only direct my energy at the “bad” Christians who like to push their beliefs. What some have to understand is that it seems to be our nature to poke fun at ALL religious nuts, including ones from our own religion (see Oh My Gods! strip).
I personally don’t like seeing any religion mocked. It’s one reason I don’t really hang out with any groups. I think the reason some do things like that are that they are hurt deeply by their experience with christianity. My neice’s ex boyfriend is a preacher’s son and a Wiccan. He was very negative towards christianity. I tried to show him that he could be Wiccan and not so negative towards another religion. Yes I know that some christians are negative folks too but it doesn’t make it right to continue spreading the negativity
I’ve been to a lot of pagan event’s and there has never been any Christian Bashing the only ones that do that are the new comers or younger generation that is mad at their christian families and think we mock christianity, I think the ones that do, and I’m sure there is just as in any religion, are not real pagans and don’t understand a darn thing. I am Pagan and I have nothing against my christian cousins at all. It’s sad though when these people get upset and blame their god for their bad situations and come over to paganism to upset their parents more. That’s not us! Some of us belief that Jesus was a good teacher and believed the same as we did. I just think if you found some that are christian bashing they have a lot to learn and don’t represent us at all!
I was taught that it is against Wiccan belief to mock the beliefs of others. That is my personal belief as well. I have never seen this done, but if I did I would leave a polite written complaint. I do feel that is stepping out of bounds.
Do as you will and HARM YE NONE.
*frown* This saddens me to tears.
I was raised Roman Catholic. I attended a Catholic High School and during that time taught CCD to elementary school students. During this time I started to seriously consider a life as a nun. I felt that God was calling me – calling me strongly. I spent time with Sister Thomasine one of the parish nuns. She urged me to go onto college and if it was the right path when I finished my education I would feel the same way. Wise words from a wise woman.
While at college I was exposed to many many other religions (Jewish, Hindi, Protestant, Wicca, Muslim) and began looking into them as well.
Time went by. My life changed drastically after college but I remained spiritual. Since high school I’ve been Catholic, Methodist, Jehovah’s Witness and finally Wiccan.
Here is where I remain most comfortable and at peace. Here is where The Divine led me on my complicated spiritual path.
I encourage religious tolerance in my own local community. When I hear people (my own friends, family – finance included) poke fun or ridicule any other religious group or spiritual path I cringe. We are ALL part of The Divine. We are ALL part of the family of humanity. We ALL came from the same source. Why do we not encourage acceptance and tolerance instead of ridiculing and oppressing? I truly don’t understand it.
To hear that this event occured at a Wiccan festival breaks my heart. I wish a fellow Wiccan would explain how this activity “Harms none.” when clearly the girlfriend of one of the Bards walked away in tears. And please don’t try and convince me that those were tears of joy. Obviously they were tears of pain and humiliation. To me that reeks of “harm”, does it not?
Even if you feel that you have received this kind of behavior from Christians before, there is NO justification for retaliation of like kind. “Two wrongs don’t make a right.” It should be obvious that one would rise above such petty behavior. Revenge? It only harms YOU in the long run. My Gods/God/Goddess have no face and no name. Deity simply is. Human-spawned dogmas, each claiming to be the “right” way, take us farther from faith, whatever your religion. We should be able to be better than that.
Being an ex-Christian I tend to mock my old beliefs (on a personal level). I know a lot of Pagans who are ex-Christians and we talk about the things we used to believe in (many of us were pretty fundamental, and this is where we get into the jokes).
But we also ask, “Do you think some day in the future we’ll be having this conversation about being Pagan?”
most of us were raised christian, so poking fun is part of the healing process. not knowing what exactly this ten commandments thing was or the disposition of the catholic woman, i’m reluctant to pass judgment on the people responsible. i poke fun at christians, and i don’t mind people poking fun at my beliefs. also consider that we are a minority and in many places, christians openly persecute us. cruel mockery is uncalled for in most cases. but when a christian is telling me i’m going to hell and shouldn’t be suffered to live, you better believe i’m going to mock him. within a pagan event that is open to all faiths, there should be an atmosphere of welcoming. i have not seen cruel mockery of christians in any of the pagan events i’ve attended, but i’ve heard plenty of jokes around campfires, and probably told a few. i’ve also laughed at jokes about pagans.
edit:
betty boop! roflmao.
you said it better than froggsfriend, who i am now resisting the urge to mock.
I know the song, I know the writer of the song and find him hysterical at times.
I think the anti-Christian stuff has toned down over the years. I do think it was backlash over how the majority of us have been treated by Christians.
I think a larger portion of the pagan community is striving for tolerance between all religions, including Christianity. It’s an uphill battle, though. I know I’m welcome in my cousin’s church but he would never consider attending one of my blots (rituals).
I don’t feel it is eer right to mock someone elese’s beliefs, and I would never takepart in anything that did.
In my experience, if you go to the celebrations of traditions, not intertraditional groups, you don’t see this.
This is one of hundreds of reasons I hate the festival circuit and only go to trad-level events.
I’ve loved Pasha’s music for many years. I absolutely hate that song.
Yes, it is common in most pagan groups to hear some negativity towards Christianity. It’s usually much less common (or non-existent) among those groups of people who have followed a pagan path for a long time.
I don’t like it when folks try to justify their negative actions by blaming non-present Christians, past experiences, or even the actions of Christians centuries ago. It is sad that they can’t even take the responsibility for their own negative behavior–let alone try to change their behavior. I take responsibility for my actions—-no one “makes” me say or do anything. I choose to act rather than react. My neo-pagan path teaches me to accept responsibility for my self and it teaches me the value of honor.
Since I’ve never practiced Christianity, I’ve never had any resentments about it to work through. I treat it with the same respect that I do all religions. I don’t generalize that all Christians are similar to their fringe-followers.
I enjoy jokes about my faith (or paths similar to mine) as long as the joke isn’t meant to be insulting. I think that most people of all religions (including Christianity) would agree. So that’s the standard that I use. Would someone of that religion enjoy my joke/comments?
There are many, many jokes about religion. It’s just as easy for me to tell one that will make a person feel good as it is to tell one that will hurt someone’s feelings. I prefer to focus on the positive.
I too have mocked Christians, but not Jesus. Jesus was probably a great prophet and Qabalist. If I mock Christians, it is a small sect of them that is quite vocal, and mixed their morality with their politics. (what America’s founding fathers saw as the Unforgivable sin)
But, you’re right, we all need to just forget about Christians when we’re doing Wiccan rituals… because Wicca is about itself, not about being the opposite of anything. We’re not a “Protestant” reformation, protesting anything, but a moving forward into the new Aeon. This is why I like to say that Wiccans have experience Parousia (the 2nd coming of Christ) within their minds and souls, where they’ve learned the lesson of Christ (Love) and can move onto the New Age and it’s lessons. This gives Christianity the respect it likely deserves, but also Wicca the place in the cosmos where it is… one step of many toward ultimate enlightenment.
Must admit to having a certain amount of dislike and distrust for the Catholic and Christian religion but I would not set out to upset them unless I was provoked. Even then it would be an attack on the person or people who provoked me. As a general rule I do not take the mickey out of others beliefs though I will laugh at a joke poking fun at other beliefs if I find it funny. I laugh at jokes regarding my own beliefs too, how can I joke about say, Muslims and then get angry with them if they say something about my beliefs? Its double standards. This group you are talking about do not sound like the sort of people I would want to be involved in personally and in my mind pagans respect other peoples beliefs, no matter what they may be. ‘And it harm none’ is what it says, though I am not wiccan I do believe it says it all.
In my travels in spirituality, I’ve found that many persons who were brought up as Christians but became involved in “alternate” forms of spirituality –especially when they approach these paths in a “religious” way–whether it be some form of neopaganism or eastern religion, are very hostile and crass about the belief system in which they were brought up. Perhaps this is a reaction to negative memories about how the religion they were brought up with influenced and constrained their early lives. Deriding their former religion, is a way to express liberation from it. Ironically, I also have observed that such people wholly embrace the equivalent oppressive beliefs and practices of their adopted system. The most striking example I’ve endured was during my stint as a Buddhist practitioner. I spent days on end with Buddhist converts who claimed to be proud atheists, disparaged their Christian upbringing, but could not stop talking and stressing over how to accrue “merit” and avoid “hell realms.”
Of course, I think this is all very silly. Granted, I have issues with persons of a fundamentalist mindset–Christian and otherwise–but as an adherent of certain eastern spiritual philosophies and practices and as a practicing ceremonial mage and western esotericist, I draw great inspiration from the idea of Christ and from elements of Christian and Gnostic teaching. People who deride other’s beliefs may do so out of ignorance and fear and also denial and self-loathing.