Question by forest_dweller_999: Why are pagans so bad at history??????
People act like all the witches in the witch-trials were all herbalists, feminists, libertarians and pagans. Nothing could be further from the truth.
They were CHRISTIANS. NONE of them were pagans. Not one. That idea was made up by Margaret Murray. They weren’t practicing “The Old Religion”, another fabrication.
Hell – they weren’t practicing any pagan religion at all. NO EVIDENCE.
Witchcraft got associated with paganism ABOUT FIFTY YEARS AGO! Witchcraft never had anything to do with paganism before Wicca was invented in the 1940s.
Now some people will say, “yes they were pagans! my family tradition is pagan” blah blah blah. But they’re not FACTS. I need written, historical evidence to believe that any self-proclaimed or any persecuted witches were pagans. Otherwise – it’s a load of BS!
And WHY do pagans make up that their religion was rosy and peaceful? Do they not know that the Celts practiced head hunting, or that the Greeks practiced paedophilia!? LOL. read a book.
P.S. pagans weren’t matriarchs, or supreme goddess worshippers either. If you read GREEK AND ROMAN LITERATURE, as well as look at NORDIC epics, women were SECONDARY to men. Read The Odyssey, see how women were meant to keep their place under a man. “Goddess religion” my ass.
Paganism today is a RECONSTRUCTION. It died out in the 12th century in Europe, and people today practice something NOT EVEN RELATED to pre-christian paganism.
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Answer by Nicholas H
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Let me (probably) blow your boat right out of the water by saying that I am a Pagan (Wiccan, actually) who agrees with you completely, even if I find your tone insulting.
More and more Wiccans are learning the true roots and origins of our religions, and that the “Burning Times” were a fallacy. I hope that this wave of education continues in the future.
Visit this website if you want to see examples of more Wiccans who agree with you.
http://wicca.timerift.net
And you might find Ronald Hutton’s “The Triumph of the Moon” a refreshing read, as a non-Wiccan historian’s account of the rise of modern Pagan witchcraft.
The truth is out there, and not all Pagans are the ignorant fools you seem to generalize us as being.
Correction: Fluffy Bunnies are bad at history. Don’t generalize. And also do not think that all Pagans are Wiccans, some are some aren’t.
I do practice a Reconstructionalist religion it’s called Asatru. It is actually a Pre-Christian religion. And I do not claim that it is rosy or peaceful, I for one can’t stand New Age stuff. Nor do I claim to be any sort of witch. Also, I doubt you have actually read the Norse myths if you think women were second class, they weren’t. There are far too many sagas about bold women for anyone to think that.
Not all Pagans are Goddess worshipers either. I do worship both Gods and Goddesses, but I admit I get along better with Thor than I do Freyja.
you do have a point there.. but remember then that every people have their witch trials..
Shhh…you’re frightening the frogs and crickets….Calm down, my child. History is always re-written…look at the Bible itself. It’s been written and re-written so many times it’s not even funny. It’s no use arguing about what people believe and what they won’t (especially here….they’ll thumb’s up or down at will) but just allow people the leeway to believe. Remember what Voltaire said : “I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
Now hush and listen for a bit.
Peace, my child.
Rant, rant, rant. It’s always the same old confused drivel.
Go drink some chamomille tea already. Light a candle, burn some incense and listen to the whispers of nature outside your window.
I am impressed, please read on.
All ancestors practiced some early rites which may appear crude to such civilized, mature society as ours?
One would wonder what the next generations will find out about us?
Some particular religious group may be at the origin of superstitious belief, however religious thought evolves just as music mingles and mixes with newer traditions.
The ultimate reasoning would be to trace the forward path of faith. History has been written by opinionated people.
Regardless of man’s divisive dogma, it is honest spirituality which leads men to respect each other no matter the past.
Actually I believe it was a school girl that claimed that she saw them practicing witchcraft. And they were Christians.Go to Salem and discover the history about the trials, they never claimed to be pagan or witch’s. they were charged with being witch’s and practicing witchcraft.
Pagan means “from the country”
so if the witch in question was living in the country….then yeah a Pagan was burned.. yadda yadda.
I agree with most of what you say..many people mistake the Burning times for Pagan persecution.
however the only reason that it was not a pagan persecution was because the people that kept their old religions were well versed at keeping them secret also.
as a Celtic Pagan, i am the first to admit that yes my ancestors did practice head hunting, though not in the African sense. To take an enemy warrior’s head in battle was a great honor. Entire warrior societies were built around this accomplishment. to take the head of someone that stole from your tribe was expected. they were harsh times with very harsh penalties for crimes against a community. If you attacked a Celtic Tribe you better eliminate them or else they are going to come back and kill every one of you.
no we do not make up that our religion was rosey and peacful if anything we admit our past more so than most other religions.
there are 2 main differances between traditional Pagans and the Abrihamic relifions.
We admit our past faults and strive to change ourselves to live peacfully in a modern world.
and.
we went to war over many things. land, hunting, and fishing rights. marriage and divorse. millions of reasons that we killed each other.
there is one thing that never happened. Pagans never went to war for the sole purpose of spreading their religious beliefs and forcing thoes beliefs on the defeated people.
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you say read a book.
but all of the books that were written about the Celts were written by Cesar or his generals. a conquring emperor that needed to have his people believe that he was doing a good and just thing. his writings are hardly reliable.
or by St, Patrick a former slave to a Celtic tribe (apprentice to a druid to be esact) and a person that made it his life’s mission to destroy the Druid Caste system. who boldly claims to have run the snakes from Ireland (look into the stories of Finnan MacDonnal to find the origin of that story.)
so his writings are hardly reliable.
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the odyssey was a greek mythology. Celtic and Norse traditions (as well as Native American traditions) put women in very high standing.
Only a true Celtic warrior Woman could possibly give birth to a true Celtic Warrior Man.
(insert Astrau, Saxon, Apache etc. in place of Celtic at will)
Let me clarify a few points. I do agree with you that none of the “witches” burned during the witch trials in the USA (specifically Salem) were truly witches (I don’t know for sure about the UK trials). They were Christians who were persecuted by their own people. That is what fear does. Fear of the unknown. Fear that you are not doing what those who are in control, want you to do. You see the same thing happening with other races and religions today. (eg. People being afraid of Muslims, without having any real understanding of the religion, but basing it on the rantings of some extremists).
Here is where I think you need to be corrected. Pagan is an umbrella term for a lot of different religions, not necessarily Wicca. By the way, the witchcraft that was created 50 years ago that you speak of, is “Wicca”, not general witchcraft. There is a very large difference between the two. You may not see it, but it is similar to telling a Protestant that they are the same as an Anglican. They are two separate sects of the same umbrella religion (Christianity is another umbrella term, for all of the smaller sects included).
As far as the “Old religion” is concerned, all that means is that those who worship it are following the oldest code of respecting the natural order of things. That being the seasons, the earth, as well as sex and death. Pagans vary widely on what they believe. You are basically ranting about the “Fluffy Bunny Wiccans” which are not an accurate representation of all Pagans, just as the fanatical Christians, spouting “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, so kill all pagans!” and “The bible says a man shall not lay with another man, so gay people are sinners and should die!” are not an accurate representation of all Christians.
Those killed during the burning times were unfortunate victims of hysteria, not true witches. Real witches practicing at that time, had the sense to keep their mouths shut, and go into hiding. By the way, a witch doesn’t have to do rituals and cast spells. During those times, a witch could also be a healer and a medicine woman. Midwives (those women who delivered babies) were considered medicine women, and would have extensive knowledge of herbs to use as remedies for those who were sick. Native Shamans were also healers, and would be considered pagan as well. The term “witch” does not apply to all pagans, and should not be used in that context.
Those who claim that they have “witch lineage”, either are trying to show off and act like they are better than others (something I do NOT condone), or are claiming so because their family has handed down the religion through generations (as Christian parents will raise their children to be Christians). I agree that many times those who make these claims, are full of it. Many are just trying to say “I am better than you because I carry witchcraft in my blood, and am linked to witches burned during the witch trials! So I have more right to be a witch than you do!”. They are looking for validation through their claims, because they are insecure.
I do not come from pagan parents. My parents are Christians. And I do not feel that I am any less of a Pagan than those who were raised by Pagan parents.
You claim the words “read a book” maybe you should do the same. There is lots of literature available on the internet, as well as in stores like Chapters and Amazon.
I am an eclectic Pagan, and a Witch, and I am damn proud of it!!
So since the few books that you have chosen to read tell everything there is about Paganism. If you plan to have a good understanding then you need to document your findings.
Yes, my Celtic ancestors killed, took slaves and burned people as offerings to the Gods. These people were either enemies to that group of people or people who refused to take no for the answer of whether they wanted to convert to Christianity. I guess next you’ll tell me that the Christians who burned Pagans and witches at the stake, applied tests that could not be passed or tortured people in to confessing they were something they were not is the Christians being nice. For every damning thing you can think to call us out for, there are ten that were done to Pagans and Witches by Christians.
Christians came to this country and did their best to civilize the native people and those they couldn’t convert they killed. American Indians were moved on to reservations that were the worst land available and these hunter/gathers were supposed to take up farming. The colera contaminated blankets they were given did a good job also!
The witch trials in Salem were not the only ones taking place in the world, so don’t say these were the only ones. There are many theories as to why the witch trials took place here, but lets just take your statement that they all were Christians and their brothers and sisters in religion killed them. So who are these horid Pagans you were talking about.
As an ordained minister I was required to take world religions, religious ethics and world history so I can speak about what was right and what is wrong. You are misled by not bothering to read beyond that which supports your belief.
The following url is a good source to start with and if you want to learn more do a complete search online and read what is available to be read and see if you can’t see that your statement is not well supported.
Wicca was established in 1954 by Gerald Gardner.
Tituba the black slave in Salem told the children stories about magick from the islands that she came from.
Women in this country won the right to vote in 1920, so feminists and liberationists are modern concepts which have nothing to do with our religions.
What you are spouting is called revisionist history and is what many radical religionists use to stir up trouble against those that the history is about.
Greeks and Romans were not prudes, so they did what they chose to whom they chose. Slaves were not treated the same as citizens, so they did many things to them.
My family back five generations were non-Christians, so if you wouldn’t call them Pagans then I need to know what they would be called? The Celts followed the pagan religions until Christianity started cracking down on the heathens, so they drew parts of the Pagan religions into the Christian one. The saints in Irish lands have very Irish names and when you delve into the history of them you will find a very Pagan root.
So please post a bibliography with your next leson on history so that we can see where you need to go to study the real truth!
And to be fair there are many within the new Pagan community who DO acknowledge this, and who try to education both neo-Pagans and non-Pagans.
In fact one of the simplest tests when scanning a Wiccan/Pagan resource is to see if they are honest and open about the fact that such beliefs are re-ifications (modern constructions that claim to build on Pre-Christian religions)
One excellent site was whywiccanssuck.com, which seems to be defunct, however here’s an essay that covers some of the same ground:
http://www.cairns.net.au/~amberdec/stupid.html
It should be noticed that a lot of young “born again” Christians in the U.S. treat their Christianity EXACTLY the same way, with little or knowledge of the history of Christianity, the history of Christ, the Bible, or the doctrines or dogmas of the major Christian denominations.
btw, just because it’s acceptable for women to be “herbalists, feminists, libertarians” today, doesn’t mean it was acceptable during “The Burning Times”. A woman can be all of those things and still be Christian, but at one time to be any of those things could be a death sentence, whether your religion was Christian or not.
Herbalists, midwives, literate and articulate women could easily find themselves labelled “witches” and killed–doesn’t mean they were witches, but doesn’t make their deaths any less tragic.
Just as something to point out, I’m a reconstructionist Pagan who is studying history at SFSU. I am well aware that the picture painted by the fluffy bunnies isn’t even remotely accurate, but I would like to point out that by painting ALL pagans with a broad brush you are doing a great disservice and acting in a similar fashion to the people you deride.
That’s nice… except we’ve known that for years.
While there may have been some true Pagans amongst the Inquisition’s victims, most were Christian. Some of them may have followed folk practices such as herbalism, etc, but folks were just as likely to be accused if they had a large bank account.
There are some associations going back prior to the 1940s, some of them going at least into the 1800s, but the number of people involved were few. At best, it was a few anomolies, and not an organized underground.
I make no claim that the Ancients were rosy or peaceful. Don’t forget the haruspex, who’d do divination by reading the entrails of a convicted criminal – often while said criminal still was alive.
That said, though, if you think women were treated second-class, do go back and read what was written about the Celts. They enjoyed quite a bit of social standing, and while the Romans feared Celtic warriors, they feared the Celtic women more.
Which Pagans are those? UEW has been teaching that Wicca was founded in the 1950s since it was founded in the 1960s.
As a practicing Pagan I agree with you on some points even though your tone is offensive. The people you are talking about who constantly bring up the “Burning Times” are Wiccans mostly. Wicca is about 50 years old but there are forms of Paganism that are older. I do not claim to know anything about those traditions other than bits and pieces I’ve read in books. Please do not lump all Pagans into the same category as the “Fluffy Bunnies” who want the world to think they are constantly being persecuted. Not all of us like to be victims.