Question by Sir Stamford Biglesworth Raffles: ‘Pagan’ Religions .. ?
Without wishing to offend anyone’s Religious beliefs, what are your opinions on ‘Pagan’ or ‘Heathen’ religions in general, as far as they can be generalized that is! It makes sense to me if there was a true religion it would be more than 2000 years old, since mankind has been able to communicate and probably even write for far longer (and it only seems fair to give them the same moralistic code to live by as anyone else). In fact most of the Worlds Creation stories go back much further, and have much in common which suggests they go back to a very early civilization which then spread across the World, or a similar revelation was given to people of many different cultures and languages. Similarities also exist between various ‘Pagan’ religions which are easier to explain, i.e the Sun-God, deities representing fertility, animal Gods etc, others are not so easy such as similarities in rites and rituals etc. The monotheistic religions (those who believe in the existence of one God, such as Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam) incorporate many of the themes of Paganism, and of each other. If Paganism is really Devil-worship why did it exist for so long before the coming of any of the prophets or Messiahs? Also why have the major non-Pagan religions resulted in so much bloodshed and violence? That’s not to say they are directly responsible of course!
PS: Just to be clear I’m agnostic (isn’t everyone!?)
Thanks Dark Side, good post! That clarified things a lot for me! You will probably think I’m stupid but I used to believe that modern Satanists were in effect Christians who believed in Jesus and God and the Bible, but chose to worship Satan. It always seemed strange that if you did bad deeds on earth and led a life of evil and sin satan would punish you in hell, surely the worse you were the better he would treat you?! I have never hurt anyone in my life yet according to the major religions I’m destined for eternal damnation! To be on the safe side I sold my soul to Satan for a nice quiet warm corner of hell.. Joke! 😛
I am a Humanist so although I respect peoples right to follow any religion I think we should put our fellow humans first. Maybe if we didn’t believe God was there to help us and everything is part of His plan people in the Christian West wouldn’t allow children to starve to death in the third World! Also I think Pagans would have a lot more respect for the environment!
Best answer:
Answer by Aravah
answer: Love ’em! My family are pagans, my friends are pagans. I was pagan 20+ years.
Know better? Leave your own answer in the comments!
You have something there… let’s set out my stall first: I’m a traditional Satanist but have pagan friends of various kinds and we have a lot in common. Not that they all necessarily want to admit it! For instance, a couple of my best friends are Druids, who believe in multiple gods, the chief of which is Lucifer – whom I recognise as Satan. They’re one and the same – all just a matter of names.
The truth is that the spiritual world is immensely chaotic and complex, and pagans and Satanists relate to that far better than major non-pagan religions, which over-simplify things and therefore get it wrong. They also lie about us, which doesn’t help either. We’re all only human and in a way can’t “get” it all. That’s why there are various kinds of pagan (with Satanists sort of off to the side somewhere!) And also various kinds of conventional monotheistic religion. They all sort of have a glimpse of reality but conventional monotheistic religion actively tries to stop it by rejecting what they call “evil”.
So why did the major non-pagan religions take over? It’s military and political power. Somehow they gained favour and ruthlessly squashed paganism. I know from my best Druid friend that he absolutely hates Christianity and the ancient Romans because of what they did to his ancestors in the faith here in the UK. What those religions don’t like to admit is how much they stole from pagans. It’d destroy their credibility, wouldn’t it?
Actually you can sort of generalise pagans – have you heard of LHP and RHP? The Right Hand Path (i.e. conventional monotheistic religion) demands that you submit to the dictates of a god, whilst the Left Hand Path puts ourselves first and sees any gods that there might be as powerful friends. The LHP also encourages thinking for ourselves as a result.
I suppose the major pagan religion these days is Wicca – fair enough but most Wiccans don’t seem to understand other pagans and Satanists enough to realise we’re all on the same side. I get it far more as a Satanist – Christian propaganda about that has a lot to answer for. Wicca has only been around for less than a century so it’s understandable.
Sorry I’m starting to ramble – hope all that helps.
Well Hello,
Well I am a Pagan, or perhaps more Exactly Neo-Pagan; and so my opinion is understandably rather positive; a good place to start an Exploration of Paganism would be Mother Earth Spiritually, Ed McGaa; Eagle Man.
If you were to explore say,
The Legends of Marduk and Tiamat, where in Marduk slays Tiamat, the Primal Ocean, the Primal Void; and then orders the universe, creating the world we live in, and the Vault of Heaven out of her remains; you might well come to understand that Poetically, it has strong resonance to the implications of String Theory;
That the void, or the Quantum Field is without Definite Character until an observer, (Marduk) imposes order on that Chaos (Tiamat) through observation. To a Pagan mind we see an intuitive knowing, and an poetic expression of that knowledge; Pagans in the Ancient world almost certainly did not understand anything like modern string theory, but intuitively they seemed to grasp that we ultimately arouse from that formless void – the Quantum Field. Ancient Pagans feared the world might collapse into that void again, and this led to ceremonies all over the world that where pointed at the Maintenance of the Universal order. (See Karen Armstrong, the Great Transformation.) From China, through Babylon, to Mezzo-America Rituals and Ceremony’s where performed with the intention of helping to sustain that universal order. Of course sometimes, in cases like the Aztecs we see terrible things done in the name of religion; Pagan religions, like the Abrahamic ones, can be mis-led down dark and bloody spiritual paths.
You said, “It makes sense to me if there was a true religion it would be more than 2000 years old, since mankind has been able to communicate and probably even write for far longer (and it only seems fair to give them the same moralistic code to live by as anyone else). ”
There are certain Abrahamic Assumptions in this question that I would like to point out, not to criticize, but to address them; first is a Notion of a true religion; this is largely an Abrahamic Assumption. The Abrahamic Religions have a book, they believe their book comes from God; they believe their book contains all they need to know encoded in that book, and this divine guidance is the root of their true religion.
We Pagans do not;
If I may say, as a Pagan of 20+ years practice, but not a person of any title in my community.
A Pagan does not begin with the Assumption that Theirs is the True Religion, instead we view spiritual life in a more Kabalistic Sense. Each Spiritual life is a persons own Religion, We may share similar spiritual paths, but we are always seeking to improve our path, to bring our path nearer to deity. Ours is a Gnostic Path, it is not about A book, a Verse a Scripture; all these things can help, all these things can steer one close to Deity; but ultimately one can only Know(Gno) Deity, but getting to know and connect with that spark of Deity within oneself.
This is the True meaning of being made in Gods Image, that we are made in the Spiritual likeness of God, not the Physical likeness of god. Of course looking around us at a glance, our connection with, and likeness too god has gotten pretty sketchy.
Also while Abrahamic faiths really heavily on their book, Pagans (although voracious readers) are suspicious of book knowledge, book spirituality; where Dogma begins, Spirituality Ends, because it draws a line in the sand and says you can get this close to God and no closer; Man Medieval Mystics, (both Monks and Nuns) where burned as Heretics for daring to cross those boundaries.
This is important, because it is possible to pursue a very Gnostic Path, while having complete Faith in the Abrahamic Tradition; even if as those traditions repress the Mystical road; so please dont feel I am completely dismissing Abrahamic Spirituality; although obviously I have serious reservations about that road.
Because we are Gnostic in our approach, we do not feel the Highest Spiritual knowledge can be found in any book, or in the Mediation on any Scripture.
We do (Largely) accept the reality of an Energetic dimension of reality peopled with beings in various times and places seen as Angels, Demons, Elves and Elementals among other things. We believe the Earth has a soul, Commonly thought of as Gaia; and we embrace her as our Ultimate Mother. Her Consort the Lord, might be Seen as the Sky God. (Native American Sky Father, Sumerian An, et all. ) or an Earth God, Osiris or the Green Man.
We largely believe in re-incarnation, and as such be believe we have a debt of stewardship on this earth to leave it clean and healthy for our children, and their children, and theirs (who might well be our returning selves.)
You asked; Also why have the major non-Pagan religions resulted in so much bloodshed and violence? That’s not to say they are directly responsible of course!
Again I would refer you to Karen Armstrong, Who is a former Nun, but like yourself an interested Agnostic.
The Abrahamic Traditions arise at the time when human societies in much of the world especially the Far and Near east shift to a Patriarchal Organization.
And Patriarchy is built on Conquest, Hierarchy and a Fascination with imposing order on a perceived Chaos. At its best it leads to High Civilization, and its worst it leads to a suffocating conformity. IMHO the Answer to your question about the violence lays in the extent to which Monotheism is entwined to Patriarchy. The Conqueror model needs to constantly reassert its value via conquest, it needs an enemy – Either Real – in Al Qaeda; or Mythic, such as the Terminator Movies. If you catch the Terminator this weekend; pause for a few moments to consider it in a Mythic light. Consider how it celebrates the Heroic, the Masculine, and Triumph by Violence.
The Terminator is actually the perfect Mythic foe, for their is no place for the peace chief with the terminator, no negotiating with its cybernetic brain, no remorse; one simply must conquer or die. A celebration of Mars, and total denial of Venus; at best Venus owes herself to Mars, for saving her. (and in Action films the Women often owe as Much or More to Mars as Venus.)
We are not of course, and never have been “Devil Worshipers”; that image unfortunately comes out of the (sometimes extreme) Xenophobia that has always been the Achilles heel of the Abrahamic Traditions; their collective inability to accept the value of any path but their own has done terrible harm to humanity throughout history, express in the form of Crusade and Jihad from old testament times to today, but it would be very wrong to point out that Many persons of faith from the beginning to today, have always rejected this Xenophobia. Solomon clearly allowed his many wives diversity of worship all the way back to biblical times; and was of course attacked for it by later prophets.
And with all due respect to the Traditional Satanist that Anwsered, I would disagree with him on many points, but ultimately his path is a reaction to Christianity, and ours preceed Christianity by Millienia, we are not nearly the same thing.
I do hope this answer has been of some value to you.
Brightest Blessings, BB.